Tim Bullard [0:02]
Welcome to the Teach, Learn, Live podcast. I’m your host, Tim Bullard, Secretary of the Department for Education, Children and Young People. Through this podcast, we’re going to shed some light about how we’re connecting students and young people right across the state to succeed. Every day in our classrooms, we’ve got teachers working hard to inspire our learners and I see great school leaders making a real difference in many people’s lives.
Kids Voices [0:27]
Teach. Learn. Live. Tasmania! [giggles]
Tim Bullard [0:33]
Today my guest is Ruth Davidson, Director of Child and Student Wellbeing in the Tasmanian Department for Education, Children and Young People. Rut has been in this role for three years and one aspect she enjoys the most is working closely with schools.
Ruth is a career educator with experience in secondary teaching in Tasmanian Government, high schools and colleges, as well as flexible learning environments. She had a unique experience of teaching in a village in Vanuatu for a year which reinforced the importance of building relationships with families and communities to support learners. Ruth has also worked in the non-government sector as the Director of Family Law Services with a focus on conflict mediation and support for children during periods of family change.
Ruth Davidson [1:18]
Thank you, Tim. It’s great to be here.
Tim Bullard [1:21]
Do you want to talk to me a little bit about the role of Director, Child and Student Wellbeing and where it fits within the Department for Education, Children and Young People?
Ruth Davidson [1:27]
Absolutely. So the Child and Student Wellbeing unit is three years old now, which seems, I always like to think of it as a new unit, but in fact, it’s three years old. It sits within the Support and Development Division. We work really closely with schools, but sit in a different Division. The thinking behind that is to have a look at wellbeing as a focus across the agency and across schools at a more strategic level. But within that, we work very closely with students support in learning and my colleague Craig Woodfall in Student Support Services is a really key partner to our work. So, we collaborate very closely with our schools and the student support in particular.
The wellbeing focus largely came out of significant government commitments in terms of family violence, redesign of child protection and child safety, so at that targeted level of intervention, there was a lot of government activity and new funding and resources and commitments. I think that sort of led some of the work, but really our work is much more universal. It’s all students every day, their wellbeing.
So it has that place – to have the universal focus for all of our students and learners – and then definitely into that area of targeted intervention.
Tim Bullard [2:39]
So schools have always been places that look after the wellbeing of children and young people, but since we’ve established your unit, there’s been a lot more discussion around wellbeing for learning. Can you talk to me a little bit about that?
Ruth Davidson [2:51]
Absolutely, that’s a really good point because when we do have conversations, we have to be really clear that that’s our purpose. We don’t own – and we talk about a sphere of influence often – that we don’t own all of the aspects or have responsibilities outside and beyond with our families and communities and other services.
But that link to learning is so critical. If you talk to any person in a school or any teacher to understand what a child brings – knowing your child, knowing their world and what they bring to school every day with them – is critical to their learning. If we talk about it in terms of our strategy, it’s around material basics. So if a child has nowhere to sleep tonight, has nowhere safe to live, has no family that can support them, it’s pretty hard to come into a classroom and be a ready learner. Any school is working on all of those areas to prepare them [students] to be ready, learning. We’ve often called that preconditions for learning. In terms of the Wellbeing Strategy it’s all the things that wrap around a child in their world to be able to be really successful and participating in their learning.
Tim Bullard [3:55]
So one of the things that has really interested me is how we know how our children and young people are going. Of course, you know, forever and a day, we’ve known at a school level and we’ve had a really good understanding around individual children, but not at a system level.
What have we changed to allow us now to measure at a whole system level, how our children and young people are going?
Ruth Davidson [4:18]
Yeah, that’s a really great question because I think when we first started the work that was the really big gap – an obvious gap that that commitment to wellbeing has always been there and is there across the system.
But how do we know we’re going to improve the wellbeing of our students for learning? So we inserted a lot of effort and I mentioned that greater commitment and funding, but we had no way of knowing whether the things that we were doing about improving the wellbeing of our students, by how much, should we insert more effort there. And so that gap in measuring and sometimes that was a challenging conversation because some people thought, ‘should you measure this?’ It’s a very subjective thing.
The student wellbeing survey asks the child about their wellbeing. Now that is a subjective view and so it should be because it’s their wellbeing. They need to tell us their feelings around their health, and their mental and physical wellbeing, as well as their feelings of being loved and safe.
So that was a really big gap, because often in our data sets, we have information about their attendance, theirinformation about their levels of engagement or participation to a degree and people, when we talked about wellbeing would often use attendance as the proxy for wellbeing. ‘Oh they’re here, they’re traveling okay.’ The ones that aren’t, their wellbeing is not so good. That’s immediately very blunt, isn’t it? It doesn’t tell you much about their wellbeing. So the gap in understanding their wellbeing and from their perspective, because we could mine other sources around SS (that again is a very important data set) but in the voice of the learner, I think was a really critical gap. I think the wellbeing survey has really highlighted how important that information is. In the first year of doing it, we had 28,000 kids complete it. So the great work for us, and challenge for the system now, is how we use it and use it to affect our resourcing and our continuous work in terms of wellbeing.
Tim Bullard [6:09]
So if I’m a student, do you want to talk to me a bit about what it’s like?
Ruth Davidson [6:14]
Definitely. That was a good thing about trialling that we got that feedback – we had several student reference groups, so we could ask the students.
One ongoing issue with the survey – with 90 questions is – it seems a bit long. If you’re a younger student, it seems a bit text dense, you know. So I’m going straight to some of the feedback, but I think that’s relevant but when you want a valid and reliable survey, you do have to ask the questions sometimes in multiple ways, in multiple levels.
So you were asked questions about your sadness, your worries, your optimism for the future, your level of engagement with your teacher, with your peers, your sense of belonging to the school (like ‘am I connected here?’). I think there’s some good questions and some of school climate questions I think are really interesting. Like ‘Am I respected?’ ‘Does my teacher respect me?’ ‘Is there a culture of respect within this school?’ Some of those questions from the view of the child, I think challenged and perhaps presented some surprises for principals and schools. Others, not so much, you know, that’s not so surprising. But for some.
I think some of the great stories, if I think about engagement with my teacher, I talked to one principal and staff around how they put so much effort into relationships. In a challenging environment, they had focused over three years [on wellbeing] but they had no evidence to see if kids felt that relationship had shifted or become more engaging, more authentic and more consistent. Their survey results came back higher than the state average for engagement with the teacher. Now that was a school in a very challenging environment and they had for the first time, a data set.
So the principal said to me, she could walk into the staff room with joy and go, ‘look, our kids are telling us we’re doing a really good job in engaging with them’. I think that’s the power of it. I think there’s always fear when you bring in a new survey that it’s going to be punitive or negative or, you know, standards and people are going to use it against us. The examples that I heard and talked with people about were certainly using it in that really positive, engaging our students and take the positives from it as well as the areas to work through. And, and I think that’s the way it should be taken, not as this measure for a competition or, you know, blunt tool to, to be punitive in that respect.
Tim Bullard [8:35]
So you’ve talked about some unexpected positives, and maybe some surprises about things that weren’t so good. Looking at it from a state level, what was the biggest thing that surprised you?
Ruth Davidson [8:47]
Yeah, that’s really interesting. I suppose one of the surprising sort of elements is around bullying. Now I don’t want to focus on that, but we’d had much media attention and talk around cyberbullying in particular. The levels were really low when they came back [from the survey]. Now, some might say that kids don’t report it in that way, or don’t notice it in that way, but you still have to listen to them. It was a much smaller figure than I think perhaps people would’ve reported or because of the media focus and that made me really think about some of our wellbeing issues that get a run. Get a period-of-time focus. And then when we looked at the survey results on cyberbullying, they were still much less than physical or social. So let’s not because that’s a new medium, it does deserve attention. So that was one of them.
The other one I think that will definitely build on is how we stack up nationally. And that’s a growing body. Tassie is in pretty a good place for already having the survey, and we partner with South Australia. So we can do some really good comparisons there. They were a bit down the path, and I think there’s some survey literacy or mental wellbeing literacy that comes with the kids being used to asking the questions and the language and know what I mean by belonging. For some kids that might not be as clear. Some of the things that I was really happy and surprised by were positive engagement with schools, belonging, and engagement with teachers. I think that demonstrates we worked extremely hard on that and build really positive relationships with our students across the system.
Tim Bullard [10:18]
So, speaking of relationships and that’s one of the things through these podcasts we’re really interested in – partnerships and relationships. How are you partnering, and being supported by students, and by schools, to inform the work that you continue to do in this space?
Ruth Davidson [10:37]
Yeah, that’s a good question. When we first started, we had a trial and that built a body of 28 schools that did the work of trialling a range of surveys. Not the one we ended with, but trialled a range a surveys for us and just kept giving feedback on that relationship. So they became a pretty ongoing group that we had as a sort of advisory group and definitely really active. We also visited a lot [of schools] and put out lots of invites and still have a really good relationships. I think in a small amount or period, we visited 90 schools and those people provided really direct engagement and lots of, sort of examples of how they would use this data and how they do use it. We developed materials around how you might start to use the information in your schools. We partnered with South Australia to do some of that professional learning around unpacking data, which has been really useful. We continually get contact around that.
Now schools are doing their school improvement plans or have been doing their school improvement plans, we’ve had lots of contact about [wellbeing]. ‘I want to use this data in my school improvement plan. How do I do that?’ ‘What do you see as what we should elevate?’ And even on a different project that we’ve got on view at the moment around trauma funding, schools that are targeted in terms of receiving trauma funding say, ‘can I use my student wellbeing data as a measure around the impact that maybe trauma informed practice will have in my school?’ Which is about building relationships, inclusive practice and therefore, is that a really good data set. So for us, whenever we’re doing different pieces of work, whether it’s the vulnerable students work through COVID, the trauma funding, the student wellbeing at a universal level, we’re trying to build that data resources that are the most helpful based on the feedback we get from schools.
And as I said, we had student reference groups during that time, as well as developing the survey. I think that’s something we can really come back to. Post the survey, I went to a few colleges in particular, and they had student reference groups and the thing that the kids really talked to us extensively about was, we want to see the results, we want to help you unpack the results and we want to see what actions were taken from the survey. I think that was so clear and many schools I know have used a student wellbeing team within their schools themselves to say, look, this is what the survey, you told us, what did you think we should do with some of those things? Which I think is a great example of how you could use it when it’s their data.
Tim Bullard [12:53]
So just keeping on the theme of partnerships, if I may. You talked about a sphere of influence and I think by that you mean what we can actually influence from a school context, and what is the responsibility that we need to partner with others? Where does that end and begin?
Ruth Davidson [13:11]
That’s such a good question, isn’t it? And I think the work we’ve been doing during COVID has just opened that discussion up, hasn’t it? I think I even heard you use the phrase, ‘there’s no longer the school gate.’ You know, we’ve opened that up. We’ve been working really closely, Craig and student support, and with students, with child safety and sort of trying to really understand those, I hate to use the word boundary, but we do need it because there are organisations that are responsible for safety outside [schools].
If I use an example of sleep, I hope I can use an example here because I think about our wellbeing check-in has, in some schools, really demonstrated that kids are really struggling with some sleep patterns. I actually saw a national story on this, where across the board COVID has impacted upon the sleep of children because their routines are so out. Now that is something we can’t control at home. We can’t control the routines. We’re not there. But we can provide information to parents in a variety of ways. Since it’s, you know, routines, device usage, sleep hygiene, some of that information and provide it to others, to families or carers that can work with the children. We can also partner with organisations or health organisations that deal with that real pointy end of sleep and mental health because that’s way outside our remit.
So I suppose to your question, I think it’s where we know we need to have our expertise, where we need to partner, which is family. But then there’s that real external when others carry the expertise and if I think of entrenched sleep problems, we do not. So it’s knowing where that is in forming those relationships.
Tim Bullard [14:45]
So, speaking of our expertise one of my reflections is that as we have moved further into getting to understand, wanting to understand, the influence of child and student wellbeing on learning, we’ve also needed to upskill our workforce in terms of supporting their wellbeing.
So what types of things have we done or are we doing to build that capacity and understanding across our school workforce around supporting child and student wellbeing?
Ruth Davidson [15:17]
Yeah, I think that’s a really good question. Because I think when we started, schools are a bit bombarded by wellbeing fixes. There’s a lot of people that are offering resilience, wellbeing, you know, it won’t surprise schools at all, just how much is out there in the market. I was pretty concerned about that when I started because it seemed to be a bit of a growth opportunity for a lot of businesses. So part of our work too was to bring that back a bit and say to schools, what do we need to know ourselves? And that was building that data set. But definitely, the expertise within our service. So in our student support service, we have a lot of professional support staff of course, our school health nurses, our psychs, our social workers, our risk team. There is a body of knowledge and expertise who provide professional learning whether it’s universal in terms of inclusive practice at a really broad level, all students, or whether, again, it’s that trauma-informed practice at a targeted level.
We also had the professional learnings I mentioned from South Australia around data and understanding it. So there’s kind of a couple of levels. At a whole school, what would you do to unpack your data and understand it? And then looking at your students, the complexity of your students or the makeup of your student body and what are some of those really key areas that you wish to work on? A lot of people have done resilience, wellbeing, trauma-informed practice. I think what we tried to do, was through our resources, highlight some of that without prejudicing – because it’s again about knowing your students. I think that was probably the effective way.
What we are moving on to now through requests from principals is the wellbeing assessment tool, which is again being used for the vulnerable students list. There’s been a gap there – we’ve kind of made this assumption here’s the tool because things move so quickly with COVID. We really – that’s a good example of, we heard the need. Can you give us some really good professional learning on using that tool methodically and systemically over time, systematically over time. I really think we can bring that back to our own wellbeing understanding, our wellbeing for learning. Because that tool is one, but we need to really embed that in for all students. Wellbeing for learning, the wellbeing domains, some really good professional learning. So we hope to offer that professional learning by the end of term.
Tim Bullard [17:28]
So a nice segue into COVID and we are still in the midst of COVID – we’ve got students in primary schools returning next week. How did we respond? You’ve talked about the wellbeing tool and I’d be interested to hear a bit more about that. How did we respond and what was challenge that we faced in terms of moving all of our learners, or the majority of our learners offsite to learn at home?
Ruth Davidson [17:53]
I think that’s so interesting because it happened and just seem to come so quickly. No one could have predicted just where it went to so quickly. I think the first response was what about our most vulnerable? You know, that real fear about children. As we know school is a safe place for so many of our children, a place where we sight them. And I think that there’s initial fear of, Oh my goodness, we’re not going to see these children. So the system really went to that targeted place first at a system level. How do we know who they are? Schools know them but at a system level, and that was the discussion at a real ministerial level, the whole of government, you know, vulnerable cohorts within the population, particularly vulnerable children. So I think the first thing, which really fixed our mind on shared understanding, which is the use of the wellbeing assessment tool.
The disruption of COVID to force us to use a common tool is actually really, really good. That elevated a group of students that schools have been working with and knowing, but now about we all have visibility in a safe way but that we can share. Now what that also forced was a sharing of knowledge from children’s safety back to us – which perhaps wouldn’t have happened with such urgency, about students that they have elevated or children and youth in the case of great need and a real moderation between our joint agency understandings of that. So I think that at first was the really key piece of work.
Then we kind of really looked at, and no surprise, to schools and that emerging group of students. That every day, normally, their wellbeing maybe fine, but there was massive disruption to families. Whether its finances, you know, income, a lot people moving back into the home or changing housing arrangements these were significant disruption for families that we’ve not seen on a wellbeing radar.
I think that’s been brought home to me in our family violence stats. New families emerging on a list about arguments, not necessarily high risk, but families before not known in the family violence sphere. People at home can observe things, tensions are very different in financial change. So I think our group moved to who are the emerging group. So we deliberately, out of that whole wellbeing scale didn’t just focus on the top three and four. We said, who is your one and twos and where’s your eye to emerging?
Now with that we also said, well, how do we keep that connection when we know these emerging and shifting changes? Cause now we’ve got some processes around our vulnerable in one way. Now I’ll just use the wellbeing check-in as an example. A very simple tool, very simple questions, very quick approach to say: How are you going? How you’re feeling? Are you getting some sleep, getting some activity? And do you want to talk to me?
I saw it as when I was teaching, they’d walk in the room each day and you go, how are you going today? How are you feeling? Not being able to see them, how do you kind of replicate that in the same way? So it was never intended to be anything of a diagnostic nature or anything more intense than that – as a check-in. Which is deliberately why it’s called just “a check-in”. But for me the question too: Do you want to talk to someone? I think is important because we were really fearful of those emerging students and how do they have that normal engagement. I still think a gap has been, and I don’t think the gap is at a school level, but maybe some recognition from us on that social element of peer to peer. You know, when I talked to friends children and kids I know, it’s like that friendship. Did we engineer around that as well, perhaps not.
Tim Bullard [21:26]
What do you think children have missed or lost? What do you think children have gained?
Ruth Davidson [21:33]
Really good and that’s so good to ask both, isn’t it? Because I just think of some of the gains for some, is have to, you know, we can’t always be talking in a deficit model for sure. I think the friendships – I think it’s really hard at different age groups. You know, I can remember myself – if you’re sick for a couple of days when you’re a kid and you go back to your friendship world can have changed significantly – there’s a new pack formed and you’re not sitting there anymore, I was really cognisant of that. And I doubt people have really worked hard on that. The friendship element, the lack of feeling part, and some of our questions in the wellbeing survey really go to belonging. Peer belonging, school belonging, that identity of being a student in a school, you know, I’m still a Cosgrove High kid. You know there’s a real part of your identity that’s really important. And as we know, cultural identity is a key part of our sense of wellbeing.
So I think for some of that loss, it’ll be interesting to tell when kids are back on site, how those friendship groups look. I think that’ll be, if any school I’m sure has that number one on their radar, really looking at how they get back in their friendship groups or they sort-of form. That re-engagement will be fascinating and something we really will be working all together on, ensuring that re-engagement works well in those social connections, as well as learning. I know the focus is on making sure that we’re progressing with any changes from their learning routine but boy, the social and the wellbeing aspect of getting back to school is so critical. And I think continuing work we can do and supporting schools with that will be really important.
What we’ve gained. I feel we’ve gained the importance of wellbeing. We all knew it, but I think it’s really beautifully reinforced it. That when there is a time of crisis, boy, we’ve got to be really focused on wellbeing for learning and wellbeing of our children and knowing our children and their needs. I feel that that, that disruption of COVID has really, if we didn’t already prioritise that, to me it became so clear when you know, you really pair it back, the wellbeing, and wellbeing for learning is a critical element of a child’s life and our work with families.
Tim Bullard [23:45]
So going back to school next week, what are some of the things that we’re going to see in schools, in terms of making those adjustments? Recognising that the children that left at the end of term one, and have been away for a number of weeks, will be coming back changed.
Ruth Davidson [24:01]
Yeah, interesting. I think that’s where we want to keep, if we can, and schools will provide this feedback to us, which is great, around the wellbeing check-in. That’s one mechanism, and I’m not saying, you know, other people will have different mechanisms. But I think, a vehicle, that vehicle, or another tool in that way, don’t drop the ball on checking in and assuming that because they’ve presented or they’ve turned back up. I think that really consistent check-in about how they’re travelling is very important. And again, not elevating it to any other for that. How are you? How are you feeling? What’s going on? At that really check-in level, I think is really important. And of course there’ll be others that require greater support and need beyond that.
We made one enhancement this week to improve the access for early years around the wellbeing check-in. So they’ve got an easier login, which I think is great too, because it was so good to hear the feedback – Can we keep using this? I think it’s going to be just as important that there’s that mechanism to do that and that schools will do that in different ways.
I think that considered, and understanding of the wellbeing needs of your schools will be brought to the fore too, because we are reopening the Student Wellbeing Survey. So we’ll start presenting materials now on what that might look like, bringing that conversation. Some schools, 50% of our schools were able to complete the survey or complete as much as they can. I think about 15,000 students did it in March. So for some schools, almost half our schools will have a pre-COVID wellbeing set and a post COVID, if you’d like to call it that, wellbeing set, a set of data. That’s going to be very interesting for those schools and at a system level, but very much at the school level to say, what are the students told us differently in March to September / October? And how do we use that information?
So you’ll have the wellbeing check-in at a daily or weekly level, to give you that instant sort of relationship and then you’re going to have a very useful data set. Even if you didn’t do it in March, you’ve got a point-in-time, because you’ve still got September from 2019 to say, actually, as our student group have said to us, they’ve got some more maybe optimism for the future as example. Engagement with my teacher and my peers – I’d be very interested to look at that one – has that shifted with that break in onsite delivery? Is there a shift in how engaged I feel with my peers or my sense of belonging, my sense of identity? So I think that sustained commitment by knowing your children and your students and those tools but then this broader data set that allows you to do some real planning for 2021 as we go into a real recovery phase. I think will be fascinating. I just think it’s such an interesting opportunity to have a look at that and we’re in a great position with so many doing it in March to be able to do that.
Tim Bullard [26:45]
So through the course of our discussion, I’ve heard you use engagement – engagement with schools; engagement with teachers; engagement with learning. That is obviously one of our departmental goals: access participation and engagement. What have we learned out of COVID around engagement that you think that we can continue to leverage from?
Ruth Davidson [27:09]
Such a good question and I also think at a student level so much to learn. We’ve learned around the levels of engagement that we could try different ways of engaging. So whether it’s the online, the information, the ringing, the child, the picking up, but the family engagement, I think has been so critical in this work. The relationship with families and schools, the work that’s been done to communicate to families, I think has been mind-blowing. Just watching that purely from a stalker of school Facebook pages – I just cannot believe the absolute quality and the depth and the beautiful, respectful communications that have been out there to schools even listening to friends and family members about the level of engagement with families, I just think that’s been stunning.
Maintaining that effort beyond is really challenging. But I feel that it’d be great to hear from others around this, that’s opened up an even bigger doorway to the opportunity to work with families and of course, you know, as some would say, they’ve had a greater insight into what teaching and learning is about by that ‘learning from home’ period. But I just think there’s a magnificent opportunity to really open that engagement with families about the students’ learning and wellbeing.
I can remember when we started the trial for the survey, there was some nervousness that we would have family pushback around asking students questions about their wellbeing. Now there was probably a greater nervousness than actually not, and in fact, the opting out level was very low. The response that we got when talking to schools with the families like, ‘Oh we’re glad you’re asking your students about this. We want them to tell you how they’re feeling about their learning and their life.’ So I think that’s, that’s just opened so many opportunities to doors, to work really closely with families around student learning and wellbeing. Which I think is one of those things you asked earlier about what we should maintain. Well, we should maintain this. We should just absolutely continue with this in increased vim.
Tim Bullard [29:04]
I’m really interested in exploring inspiring teachers and inspiring school leaders through the course of this podcast. You’ve been in your role for three years. What’s inspired you?
Ruth Davidson [29:19]
I think just all of those engagements with schools is, and you know, people with go, oh you know … but it’s just so…Whenever we are thinking we’re being innovative, I feel like we’re just on the back end of someone that’s already by doing that innovation, to be honest. I really think what shines for me and is really inspiring, is knowing your students, to create and to be innovative because you are, and we use that context a lot. For example, many groups come to us as the wellbeing team and say, we want to roll out this thing to every school and my stock standard answer is always, it will never fit every school. You can’t just roll out anything and say, every school has to do this. We had a lot of requests to do that as people can imagine, I’m always inspired by how unique, innovative, individualised, some of those responses are, but within a system.
So schools are within a system, as we all are in the same system. There’s got to be guidance and direction and leadership from a system. Which is fair enough, it’s a state government school system. But within that, there is this fantastic innovation and quality that comes from knowing your students and I think that inspires me so that every time we are developing resources, developing materials, developing a strategy. It has to be dynamic enough to capture the needs of those individual schools. And I think if we ever lost that then it becomes a bureaucratic exercise. I’m always inspired, and the student reference groups, you know, part of me just, just misses that element of a relationship. You know, and I know other jobs have different challenges and other rewards, but being with students, and sitting in those groups, and hearing their stories is one of the most inspiring elements of the job.
Tim Bullard [31:07]
So I just want to thank you Ruth, for sharing your experience of teaching, learning and living in Tasmania. I think it’s been a wonderful insight, not only into the importance of wellbeing, but understanding why wellbeing being promotes and supports learning.
I’ve also been very taken with your observations around the positives that have come out of COVID and some of those things that we need to make sure that we keep, moving forward.
So I hope that you’ll join me next time as we get to know more great teachers, curious learners and inspiring families and communities who teach, learn, and live here in Tasmania. Until next time. Goodbye.
Tim Bullard [32:00]
I hope that you’ve enjoyed today’s podcast. To hear more about those that teach, learn and live in Tasmania. Join us www.anchor.fm\teachlearnlive, or wherever you download your podcasts. Why not subscribe so that you can keep up to date with what we’re doing.
If you have a story about an inspiring teacher or student, get in touch and tell us about it at email@example.com
Kids Voices [32:21]
Teach. Learn. Live. Tasmania! [giggles]